sociocreative trust

20 August, 2024 Arteles

MD: I've started recording and this is Tuesday, the 20th of August at 1503 at Arteles Creative Center in Finland. if you would please tell me your name and where you're from. 

Sian: My name is Sian and I'm from Toowoomba in Queensland, Australia.

MD: Thank you, Sian, and thank you for today and being part of the Conversations of Care series. 

So the first question, tell me who you are.

Sian: I am a graphic designer. I'm an artist.  I'm a printmaker.  I'm a Japanophile. I absolutely love everything to do with Japan. And I've become a big fan of Finland as well.  I'm married. It's all part of my identity, I guess. And I was one of two children,  to a Welsh mother and an Australian father. Um, and, that's about it. Oh, and did I say I'm married? I'm married with a cat? 

MD: What's the cat's name?

Sian:  Oh, Nozomi, which is a Japanese girl's name. And it means hope. It's also the fastest bullet train that they have. She adopted us, she came out from underneath the house one day, and we came back from Boxing Day from the Gold Coast, and this tiny little kitten poked out from under the house, came up and said, you look like nice people. I think I'll adopt you. And, my husband said, no.  The next day I, I thought, oh, she'll go away overnight. I gave her a little bit of milk. She was so s tiny. Anyway, there was a storm overnight, and I felt sure that she was not going to be there in the morning.  Mark went out for a while and when he came back, he found me asleep on the couch with the cat on my chest.  He said, so I guess this means we're keeping her. We did a bit of hunting to see if she came from somewhere and have no idea, but she's just the cutest. She's now 12 and wow!  she's an indoor cat and an only cat as well, and I just adore her. 

MD: And you mentioned Mark, your husband was going to do service. What does Mark do? 

Sian: Mark is the rector or the priest in charge of the Anglican Church in Toowoomba. We've been in the rectory there for coming up on ten years, next year.  He's thinking of retiring in the next couple of years.  He was in theological college when we met.

MD:  Oh. Were you in theological college? 

Sian:  No, I wasn't.

MD: What were you doing?

MD: I was doing art college at that time. This is 38 years ago. We've been married 38 years. It was 40 years ago I first met him. We met through a friend of ours who was an Anglican priest. He was my rector, my parish priest. And prior to that, he had been Mark's parish priest where Mark grew up in the  middle of the Citrus District in north northeast Queensland.

MD: And you were introduced?

Sian:  When Keith, the parish priest moved to Brisbane, I was his organist, and his media assistant within Anglican media. We were the media department for a while. 

MD: That sounds ike fun.

Sian: Keith  introduced us much earlier for a youth group that he started and he was trying to do it as a matchmaking thing. He wanted to breed little Anglicans.

MD:  It sounds like a matchmaking thing.

Sian:  I met Mark at that. And actually, I thought he was a pain at the time. But then fast forward a few years, and we bumped into each other outside the cathedral, and he asked me out on a date after that, and he was a bit of a dish. Yeah, it's still a bit of a dish. So here we are, 38 years of marriage later.

MD: That's quite wonderful. 

The next question has two strands. One relates to you, Sian, as the individual and the person and the other one is more broadly within your communities or even the world. We'll start with your response first. 

What's the first thing that comes into your mind when you think of care?

Sian: Compassion.  Um concern. Care for others. Talking about me in terms of care for me, self.  So that is. Relaxation.  For me, it's withdrawing from, because I'm a bit of an introvert and so is my husband.

MD: That's good. 

Sian: So there's very much the outer, you know, this is what we do for our community, but behind walls, it's what we do for us and that kind of thing.

MD: And replenishing yourselves.

Sian: Yes, yes. and for me, that's art.I've worked as a designer and I still work as a designer and illustrator,  art is just… Well, my printmaking is part of the self-care, if you like, particularly, as you know in our work in community, we're kind of in a goldfish bowl to a degree, although it's a lot less than I expected.  We had people knocking on doors at all hours of the night, needing assistance and that kind of thing. I guess that's where the community care comes in and, ministry to our parishioners.

MD: What happens with you if you forget to take care of yourself. What are some of your signals?

Sian:  In the past, I've had a lot of migraines. And that was all very much stress related and allergy related. But, you can't help that. My concern is caring for Mark, I'm just sort of an attachment really in one sense. Because it's his life, but his job as well,  and it consumes him quite a lot. And getting his day off is very hard,  particularly as it's a Monday and a lot of funeral directors love to have funerals on Mondays. Mark's not really good at taking care of himself. He has a tendency to put us last in one sense. Mentally he doesn't, relationship is crucial. To keep it going. But the actuality is that other things have priority. And that's okay.

MD: And he's doing what needs to be done. 

Sian: And he's he's getting it done as he can. 

MD: That's a massive responsibility for both of you because it is a very public enactment of care. 

What's the first thing that comes into your mind when you think about care beyond yourself?  That can be in relationship with Mark, in relationship with your community and relationship to the world.  And with others.
What's the broader concept of first things that come into your mind? 

Sian: Well, my parents were something as well, but they've both passed now. Mark's my first priority. but then the world, it's about care for the environment as well. And care for the community. We've got a lot of ageing people. Not all of those have family and those who have families don't necessarily talk with them. That kind of thing. There's a lot of people who are quite lonely out there. So definitely. Environment. Care for that. Reducing plastics, and that comes out in my art. I had an exhibition just recently. Environment is a big thing. Community is a big thing. 

MD: I was just thinking, contemplating about that big responsibility of yourself and Mark within that community of care. And then you're talking about your support of Mark as well, and your support of yourself and your art practice, being a meditative and creative. And it's an outlet for you and it replenishes you. 

Sian: And my music.

MD: Tell me a little bit about your music practice as well.

Sian:  I've been learning the shakuhachi, which is a Japanese bamboo flute, for four years. It’s all part of my Japanophile thing. I heard the shakuhachi many, many, many years ago with Riley Lee. And Taikos. And I’ve always wanted to do taiko, which is Japanese drumming and a very high energy. Yeah, and shakuhachi, which is not the high energy. So I got a chance in 2017, I joined the Australian Shakuhachi Society because I could then get access to Riley Lees back end of his website behind the firewall and get  access to the free lessons that he had up there. 

I didn't realise how variable the pitch was on a shack until three years later when, just before the lockdown, we had an online session for shakuhachi and I joined in. I was the test bunny, if you like, for getting the settings right, for running monthly workshops online. And so Lindsay, my now teacher, was running those and he's the president of the Shakuhachi Society, and was in Melbourne at the time, he now lives in Japan married to a Japanese woman. About mid-year, he was running a series of these workshops. Melbourne was in lockdown. Toowoomba, where I was, was in lockdown for a while. I was working from home, so that was perfect. Um, and the university sent us home. All these sensei in Japan were not able to have their students, and they were actually really struggling financially.  Lindsay was running workshops online as a way to generate a little bit of money and share a bit of knowledge and all that sort of stuff. And that was fantastic. And as a result of that, I thought, oh, well, I'll ask if he did lessons. And he did. So I became one of his students from then on had weekly lessons online. I actually met him last month for the first time. So after four years of lessons online, I actually got to have a lesson in in face to face, which was magic.

MD: That must have been incredible.

Sian: It was. And to listen to him play in a concert. Riley's different kind of player. And I've never had a lesson with with Riley, but he's been online in a couple of sessions. It’s kind of, you know, your hero kind of thing. You don't want to necessarily have a lesson with your hero. So I got Lindsey, and Lindsey is great, and he's taken me right through from scratch, basically.

MD: That's dedication as well to your practice, which must also feed in to your art and your creativity and your well-being and your mind state. Practicing a musical instrument is really good activity for your brain. And just your whole central nervous system. And that dedication to the routine of the practice over that four years is a structure as well. So that would have been an incredible thing to do during the pandemic.

Sian: Yeah. It was it was fabulous during the pandemic. And for me it was it was a kind of a care thing too at that time. To have contact with people because I was online all the time, with work, I had contact with my work colleagues online. But, you know, we were working harder online at home during the pandemic.  I know some people who had no work to do when they went home and they thought that everyone had that. And it's sort of like, no, no, we were working…Well, it wasn't quite 24/7, but, you know, it was pretty full on. 

MD: And what you'd created there was a community. A community beyond your work and something for yourself. Something nurturing. That's very beautiful. That's part of your care. 

The next question, we'll approach it first of all from yourself and in your immediate world and environment. 

How would you like to see more care enacted in your future or the future? 

And the future can be any timeline. If there are things that you've thought about and contemplated and things that you would like to see happen in the world for yourself, for your family, for others, what are some of those things?

Sian: I would really love to spend more time with Mark. More quality time. He comes home and and he's so tired. He's not sleeping well, and he sits in the very comfortable chairs that we bought when when we first accepted the appointment. He's the rector, but he's also got an additional job for the bishop as archdeacon. And so he actually has that care not just of the parish but of the priests within the area. Within his archdeaconry. And what goes on in their parishes and in the ones that are vacant within that as well.  So Mark, has multiple layers of jobs that he does and care for others. He's he's always giving out. and when he comes home he shuts the door and he sits down in that very, very comfortable chair. He's asleep within seconds. If I don't get a chance to chat with him before he goes to sleep, I can chat with him afterwards, but he will not remember it because he's still in that sort of semi slumbering thing until he goes to bed and then he'll sleep. And it doesn't matter what time he goes to bed. He always wakes up at five.  He starts sleeping from 6 p.m. when he comes home. Unless he's got a night meeting. There's a lot of that as well. So I spend a lot of time by myself and with the cat.  

I've taken on activities.  I used to do martial arts until my shoulder went last year. and I should get back into that. Because it keeps me moving, it stops me stiffening up. I did that as a part of my self-care as well.  And as a sort of legitimate way of releasing some of the tension, in a healthy way, and a controlled way. In the future,  I would really love to have more time with a present Mark. 

MD: What are the plans for enabling more quality time with Mark? 

Sian: One of the things when we retire, or when he retires, because I won't just yet, I’ll just keep going. One of the things we're going to put in place is a massive shed. It's going to be massive. The idea is that I will have a print studio and it  will be a double garage size and he'll have a workshop. The thought was that we would actually have a shared space. Double garage sites as well as the the house. Mark would like it to be a chapel setup. 

MD: For yourselves or for others?

Sian: Ourselves. 

MD: That's almost like a worship space?

Sian: Yes it is, it's a worship space, a meditation space. He's bought over the years… a confessional. It's mini one. It's a travelling one. It's so hilarious. Um, with a tiny little curtain. Oh my God. And a grill and mesh and things. The Anglican Church does do confession, but not in the same way that the Roman Catholic Church does confession. Anyway, um, we have one, it's like a prayer desk. I presume, for the penitent. Then for the the priest, they would have a chair or something like that on the other side.

MD: Amazing.

Sian: Yeah, I know, but he's got a font. Why do we need a font? Our own font. It's like. Who knows?

MD:  He has a plan of some kind of what's going to happen.

Sian:  I mean, we don't have children. We don't have siblings anymore. And they didn't have children. So it's sort of like, why do we need a font? You know, a baptismal font. He's also picked up an altar. So there's a number of churches that are closing down and quite a lot of their magnificent furnishings and things have been going to the central spot in the diocese, and they have been handing them out to parishes that need them for new churches or whatever. But usually if you've got a new church, you want to commission new furniture, right? Which is what we did when we got ours. After Mark took over, we built onto our existing daughter church, which was basically a hall. And so then we put the church on with that. So all the furniture was crafted from Queensland woods and in a modern style, because it was a modern style building.  Whereas a lot of the beautiful things that come from other churches are Old Gothic and, they're gorgeous., Mark has bought 1 or 2 things from the Central Diocesan Repository because they were things that were otherwise going to be, just tossed aside. Because they weren't memorial things. So they're keeping the memorial things. But the other things they're selling off if people are interested, but it's pretty niche.

MD:  It's quite significant as well. And towards a commitment to a life's work of service within the church.

Sian:  And serving God. Because Serving God is central for us. That worship goes on every day. Regardless of where we are. It’s the personal connection. 

MD: That's a strong thread of care as well. That's also what brings you together as a unit serving God? Yes. And in your relationship to each other as a couple. And a family. There's a lot of care in that. I'm hearing that when you're  talking about your care for Mark and you're wanting him to be able to look after himself as well. 

In this beautiful mega shed that you're building, what kind of things do you think Mark will do when he starts to retire?

Sian: I'm hoping he'll get back into into woodwork. We were in the same church in Toowoomba at Saint James as Mark. We just loved Toowoomba, and as a result of that because the community were was much stronger back then. A much younger community. They've aged now as we've aged. But, it was a fantastic experience. Mark was made assistant at I did the Bicentennial exhibition coordination. Then I worked for the council during that, and I got to know the community as a result of that, because of I had to do the sound programming as well as the actual pavilion programming, and getting people to showcase what the whole area was about. That was fantastic. I was a bell ringer back then, and the church in Maryborough, the Anglican church was it had a bell tower and it had handbells as well. And the bell tower, they sent the bells away to get refurbished. And being the bicentennial year, they had lots of ringers, groups of ringers come and they were playing in there. And the handbell ringers were doing a lot of things as well. And I was a handbell ringer.

MD: That's amazing.

Sian: It was great. But I always wanted to do the tower thing. Practice time didn't work with with work and stuff.

MD:  Was Mark doing woodwork then?

Sian:  He was restoring furniture on his days off. That was fantastic. Going round the antique shops and, because we love antiques, he'd pick up a sideboard or something and he'd make it a project. Take it apart and put it back together and, finish it beautifully. After Maryborough, Mark was priest in charge at Saint George's Crow's Nest. Which is about 40 minutes from Toowoomba. That’s the community that I had the exhibition in recently.. But that whole community has changed. The cycle of people have has gone. We were there two years, but in that two years, Mark had a bit of a breakdown. He left full time parish ministry, and we moved into our little house in Toowoomba that we'd bought to renovate. That was our day off thing, and we were going to rent it out, but plans changed and we moved into it. It's a tiny little cottage. We moved from a four bedroom house with massive study and had to get rid of a whole pile of stuff and move into a two bedroom house, basically. Then we partially finished the renovations on that and had it extended. It was about ten years before Mark was actually working and functioning again. At one stage he was sleeping 24 out of 20, 22 out of 24 hours. It  was just his brain had shut down, basically, and and turned itself off. 

MD: Was that work related stress that he just hadn't couldn't do any more?

Sian: Yeah, basically. and personalities, there were a few personalities that caused issues at Crow's Nest.

MD:  People in the church?

Sian: Yes… and  that was that was an eye opener for me because I hadn't I hadn't connected the signs beforehand. So when Mark went pear shaped, it was a real surprise to me.

MD: Wow.

Sian: It was sort of like, why did I miss those signs? So that's why I keep a much closer eye on him now. He keeps saying, I think I'm heading that direction again. And it's like, don't want you to go there. So that's one reason why he's retiring next year, hopefully that will prevent that happening because, he stopped his woodwork, he stopped everything. So the plan is in retirement to have this woodworking thing get out of this lathe, all that sort of stuff and hopefully enjoy things. At the moment he's all work and no play.

MD: It  sounds like in terms of that extended future care for you both, that he will need to remain active because he's been so active in his career. That to care for himself and his wellbeing, which then filters out to you, there needs to be something in place to keep him active and feeling engaged with.

Sian: Yeah, absolutely. So in that ten years, I went to work,  and did various things. Eventually Mark went into an accounting firm. He was an accountant prior to becoming a priest and but he kept his liturgical license. For a few years he did that and changed a couple of firms. Then a firm where the guy who was our church warden and is an absolutely darling, from back when we first were there, eventually retired, but he was still involved with his accounting firm, and he helped Mark to get a job there as auditor. He was auditing the church of PNG, for instance.  So we'd go up there for a few days a year basically for three years. So that was, that was fantastic. I didn't get to go, but it would have been great. I sort of kept us functioning and, then he went back to work, which was great. And then he became an Anglican organisation’s business manager, so he had a lot going on.

He had a number of multi-million dollar builds on the go, which actually stood him in good stead for building our church when we went in there. He was a different person when he was there. It was something to do with the culture. I'm not sure. There was a little bit of a hiatus where he was helping the previous rector with Saint James because we were worshipping there. Then that rector decided he would go to Brisbane. And Mark was locum for Saint James Parish. And then while they were hunting for someone new, they discerned that they wanted the two of us. And we had to actually go through discernment again because which is when people want to offer themselves for ministry, they go through discernment with the diocesan council, parish councils.. To double check that you don't have two heads. So we had to go through that. I'd not been through that the first time, even though I was, you know, fiancee. Um, they they never looked at me back then, but to go into Saint James's. The parish couple? Yes.  we had to do that, discernment. And anyway, that all went positively. 

MD:  Did they interview you? Did you have to have meetings?

Sian: Just with the parish nominators, the bishop,  there was a whole pile of people. And they all fired questions at me separately from Mark as well.  It was kind of nerve wracking, but also. we both felt called to that ministry at Saint James, even though I'm not paid and I'm not doing a lot of the ministry that others do because there are others to do it, and I don't want to stop them doing it. Whereas a lot of clergy wives feel that they have to step into the breach kind of thing because nobody else wants to do it. We're very lucky that we've got people within our parish who do amazing things. They're they're really incredible. And they're all in their 80s. 

MD: And to do that, you and Mark must have had loads of conversations around that commitment as a as a couple to enter into that. 

Sian: We also prayed about it, separately and together.

MD: So praying to get what?

Sian: To listen. To to see whether that was actually what we wanted or whether it was what God wanted. It definitely wasn't what I wanted, but very strong answer of yes. This is where I want you to be. So we went.

MD: So you committed? Oh, my gosh, what a time. 

Sian: And then, before Mark was made rector, because, you go in as priest in charge, just to double check that everything's going to go Okay. And then then after a period, you become rector, which means you have tenure kind of thing. You choose when you leave. You don't have to leave at the behest of the archbishop, which you do as an assistant. 

MD: Did he get nice clothes to wear? A special rector regalia.

Sian: No, no, just just the same as any other priest. But Mark is very much into vestments. And we he has an enormous collection of copes and, and that kind of stuff that he's sourced from Poland and they're really cheap. But if you bought them in Australia, they'd be so expensive. The markup that other places put on things like he can get a cope, which would be $1,000 or $2,000 elsewhere for $120. He has copes in every color, every liturgical color. So part of that communal shed that we're going to have, the double shed is going to be a robe storage for him, because I will have a dirty shed and he'll have a clean shed. 

We're not going back to the house that we were living in which was at number 100 in the street, we went from number 100 to 145, to live in the rectory, because we believe that, if you're in that position, and you've got a facility as good as that, you should actually live there. And it's a lot handier to turn off the alarm in the middle of the night or whatever when you're right next door, as opposed to elsewhere. A lot of clergy families live elsewhere these days, and they're selling rectories, or they're converting them into offices or that kind of thing, which probably when we go, that's what they'll do with that. 

MD: So where will you live? 

Sian: We already have a place. One of our parishioners was wanting to sell, and at the time the market was very low. She was unhappy with the real estate agents and they were talking her down. She needed a certain amount to build. And we said, right, we'll commit to that and she was able to go off and build, and she lived in the house until she'd finished building, which worked well for us because we weren't in it. Her whole house, her whole family got together for one last dinner there before she moved into her new place. And they did the same when they got there, they basically did a whole blessing of the house for us and which was I thought was really lovely and very meaningful. Then a friend of ours who was also an accountant who very much felt a calling, a single guy in his early 50s. We decided that we would support him by putting him into our house while he was studying. Until such time as he was ordained or not. He's been house sitting for us, which is great. So at the end of this year, he should be ordained. Hopefully. He's already finished his theological degree. And done very well. And we're quite confident he'll be deaconed at the end of the year.

MD:  Will he do Mark's parish?

Sian: No, he did it for a student placement. He then did another parish, and he'll probably be assigned an assistant role somewhere, and then move out and we'll move in, basically.  So we'll renovate a little bit because the house hasn't been renovated since it was built.

MD:  That’s a clear beginning for you as well. Rather than going back to the house that you owned before you moved into the rectory.

Sian: Yeah, because Mark didn't want to go back to the house for two reasons. One, because he associates a lot of that negativity with the house, which is not the house's fault, also because it's so close to the church, which was fine when he was a locum and all that sort of thing, but as being in the pocket of the next incumbent. You don't want to do that, so we'll be further over. We'll still be worshiping in the parish, but we'll be further over. 

MD: I'm just blown away by this commitment to God, the commitment to service of the church and and service to God and community. Your lifelong work supporting Mark your husband's lifelong work as well. It's quite an outstanding achievement.

Sian:  So many clergy wives do it. Yes.

MD:  And it's unseen work and even the work Mark does a lot of it's unseen because it's not just giving service a couple of days a week and then all of the associated births, deaths and marriages. It's this pastoral care, that is 24 hours a day. 

Sian: We have a Sudanese community as well. There is some connection there with ministering with them and also with the Sudanese priest who we have. Although he's not actually on staff, but he comes from another parish and ministers to the Sudanese community in Dinka.

MD: That's a whole other layer of responsibility and care.  We had a bit of a chat, You and I in the car about  that level of trauma within a refugee community,  that a lot of people carry and that are in your parish to start new lives, with lots of brightness. But there's a real  trauma that's been carried as well. 

Sian: And deaths of all your family members, and it's still going on for them. You know, even though they're here, some of their family members are still back in the Sudan. and, you know, being killed in massacres.

MD:  That's a big responsibility for you all as well to contain and carry that and support that.  I understand.

Sian:  That the congregations together too. Yes.

MD:  That's true, it's also community building and community making with loads of challenges. I can see how,  all along the way with your clever mind, and I don't know if you're aware of this, but I can see how you're thinking ahead. You're setting up things to move into the next thing. And you do that with your art. You do that with your music. You're curious, you're engaged, you're looking for what you can learn next, and you're doing that in your life as well and thinking, we're going to have this big shed and this is what's going to go on and step by step by step by step. 

In that future, what's Sian going to be doing?

Sian:  Printmaking. I've got into that in the last 10-15 years. That's about as long as my martial arts actually. And it was because everything that I did work wise was digital. When I first learned graphic design it was all hands on. You were ruling lines, and cut and paste, all that kind of thing. I  wanted to get back to having hands on stuff and getting ink was a great way of doing it and it exploring different techniques that I'd never learned before. So that's where that journey is. And now I'm consolidating a lot of that into my art practice. I'm still exploring. Learning new tricks. And who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks?

MD:  I'm a big believer of as long as you're alive, that's your time. We're here and we're doing our best and we're alive. And as long as you're alive, there are still things to be doing. Absolutely.

Sian: And to learn. I very much believe in lifelong learning. I think that's from my grandfather. He was like that, too. In his 80s he was teaching French to the University of the 3rd Age in Sydney.

MD: I love the University of the 3rd age. We used to neighbor them in an office. They were really great. 

I know that you have a passion for travel and you have a passion for Japan. And it really comes through in everything that you do and your aesthetic, your view on the world, your Zen approach to things. The way you walk through spaces. 

Where does travel sit in your future?

Sian:  Oh, definitely. Definitely. After retirement. I would very much like to travel. Travel and definitely Japan again. We've gone three times to Japan already.. I still would love to go North Island from New Zealand,

MD: I wonder if he'll write a book. He's had such an interesting life.

Sian:  Well, he's got a real writer's bent. You know, because he writes a sermon every week, and that's been really good practice for him, actually.

MD: I can imagine him writing.

Sian: I've suggested that he come here and do a writing retreat. So anyway and he may or may not.

MD: We've still got a week and a bit left of our residency. 

What are you going to take away from this artist experience to contribute to your practice and your care?

Sian:  Mhm. That's a good one. I have treated this as a bit of a retreat, like a Christian meditation retreat. With the meditation here, it's been good. Not that I've joined in every time, but there's other ways that you can explore meditation that doesn't have to be in a pose at a particular time.

The prayer stuff that I've been doing has been more Christian. And more, Bible based I guess. But I haven't been able to do that here because they took our phones and they took our internet. So it's just been a conversation between God himself. Which living and breathing is a conversation. It happens as I breathe. I've enjoyed being able to practice more. I've enjoyed being able to do my art more every, you know, every second. I could actually concentrate on that pretty much. And and my music. And that's been a it's been an absolute balm to the brain, I think that alone has been worth the trip here.

MD:  I love that ‘balm to the brain’.

Sian: I've been doing a bit of making books and things like that from from the prints that I've made and that that was something I'd wanted to actually start doing. So yeah, that will continue going forward.

MD:  Yes. And also now you're an expert sauna maker.

Sian:  I don't think that's going to happen. We’re not going to build a sauna at our house. Maybe an electric one. Oh, yes. I love it. I can't see it being a daily practice. It is a big commitment. I'm in Queensland. We sweat anyway.

MD:  That's right. You live in Queensland. You don't need a sauna.

Sian:  Don't need to sweat. Need to cool off. I want a lake.  I'd love to take the lakes in the forest with me.

MD: It's been incredible to be here and to commune with nature and with everybody who has their own spiritual practice.  And it's been very respectful. 

Sian, thank you so much.

Sian: Thank you. Thank you very much. I hope that there's something of interest in there.